Fourth Trimester Podcast Episode 9: Mom friends
Meet a mama who created a successful tech startup after having her first baby. We discuss the balance of baby life and social life, as well as how to prepare for baby number two. Making mom friends isn’t easy. The solution? For Jeni, it was building a social app to connect new parents and build community local to their neighborhood (AKA Parenthoods). Modern technology has afforded new parents the ability to build community in new ways. It doesn’t need to be any specific app – just know you aren’t alone. There are many new parent communities online. Enjoy!
“Finding friends that are on your same wavelength …finding people that you can text in the middle of the night or chat with in the middle of the night while you’re nursing and you’re all alone at 3am exhausted but feeling like you’re not alone, through this community was something that was very important for us to create.”
— Jeni Diaz Axline
Sarah Trott: [00:00:05] My name is Sarah Trott. I’m a new mama to a baby girl and this podcast is all about postpartum care for the few months following birth, the time period also known as the Fourth Trimester. My postpartum doula, Esther Gallagher, is my co-host. She’s a mother, grandmother, perinatal educator, birth and postpartum care provider. I’ve benefitted hugely from her support. All parents can benefit from the wisdom and support that a postpartum Doula provides. Fourth trimester care is about the practical, emotional and social support parents and baby require, and importantly, helps set the tone for the lifelong journey of parenting.
When I first became pregnant, I had never heard of postpartum Doulas, let alone knew what they did. So much of the training and preparation that expecting parents do is focused on the birth and newborn care. Once baby is born, often the first interaction parents have with medical or child professionals, other than the first pediatrician visits, is the six-week checkup with the OB/GYN. What about caring for mama and family between the birth and the six week doctor visit? What are the strategies for taking care of the partner and the rest of the family while looking after your newborn?
Our podcasts contain expert interviews with specialists from many fields to cover topics including postpartum doula practices, prenatal care, prenatal and postnatal yoga, parenting, breastfeeding, physical recovery from birth, nutrition, newborn care, midwifery, negotiating family visitation, and many more.
First-hand experience is shared through lots of stories from both new and seasoned parents. Hear what other parents are asking and what they have done in their own lives.
We reference other podcasts, internet resources and real-life experts who can help you on your own parenting journey. Visit us at http://fourthtrimesterpodcast.com
Sarah Trott: [00:00:48] Welcome back to the fourth trimester podcast. This is Sarah Trott and I’m here today with Jenny Diaz Axline who is the co-founder of a parenting app called Parenthoods. I highly recommend installing it, certainly if you’re in the Bay Area or one of the other cities where Parenthoods is offered. And Jenny can tell us which ones. Parenthoods is a community platform for local parents to meet up, share advice and help each other conquer one of life’s craziest rides which is parenthood. And Parenthoods is a Y Combinator company. It’s raised one point three two million in seed funding and it’s one of San Francisco’s hottest startups. In addition Jeni has just had her second child and she is currently in the fourth trimester so I’m particularly appreciative of you joining us today Jeni.
Jeni Diaz: [00:01:41] Thank you. I’m happy to be here. So right now Parenthoods is alive in the Bay Area. We started in San Francisco and we also recently just launched in Los Angeles. But you have the opportunity to watch Parenthoods in your own city if you download it. We show you how to do that and once we get 100 people joined in your city we unlock it and there so many more features that you can access through that. So definitely recommend everyone checking it out.
Sarah Trott: [00:02:12] Absolutely. I love parenthoods and I’ve mentioned it in other podcasts before as being a fantastic resource. So I look forward to seeing it grow and grow and grow.
Jeni Diaz: [00:02:23] Awesome thank you.
Sarah Trott: [00:02:25] So our first question for you is one that we like to ask all of our guests which is what was your fourth trimester like but you’re of course experiencing that now. So what is your fourth trimester like ?
Jeni Diaz: [00:02:40] Well this time around it’s been a lot easier. I think going from one to two is easier than going from zero to one. You know our first time around I didn’t know what to expect, I was exhausted and I didn’t, I had wonderful resources but you know I remember my mom and my mother in law there for the first week after my daughter was born. And then they left and I bawled. I mean I was like seriously you’re going to leave me alone with a child? Am I even capable of doing this? It was just lots of trial and error. But it was very difficult to be on my own especially with family not in the city that I lived. This time around I feel like I’ve learned from trial and error the first time and knew what I needed. So immediately I’d lined up my family to be here for four weeks; for a full month after I gave birth to my second daughter. I accessed a whole bunch of resources just to have on hand in case I needed to call someone about postpartum depression or you know; my husband was lining up massages and all these other goodies to just give me some me-time. It’s very overwhelming. I’m focusing more on myself. But there’s a whole fourth trimester of your child as well. But I think Long story short second time is better and it was important for me to take care of me because I’m a better mom that way.
Sarah Trott: [00:04:15] Would you be willing to share some of the things that you felt were really beneficial for you in terms of you taking care of you?
Jeni Diaz: [00:04:22] So the first thing was getting help. We had family here first my parents the first two weeks and Keith’s mom the next two weeks taking care of us. So that was huge and just letting myself relax and take care of things like cooking dinner, doing light cleanup, picking up my first daughter from school. then also saying, it’s OK to sleep it’s OK to sleep in. It was hard for me initially because I liked dropping my daughter off at school but I needed to make sure that I was getting enough sleep so that when she got home from school I was happy and ready to play with her and ready to be that energetic mom that she deserves. So I think it’s sleep, help, plenty of food and then some nice perks too which is like a massage here and there.
Sarah Trott: [00:05:19] Yeah that sounds great. What have been your favorite foods?
Jeni Diaz: [00:05:23] My mom makes this killer lentil soup that, I’m vegetarian and I feel like after you give birth you just want something super warm and comforting. But also with really good protein and I think most moms you know drink a bone marrow soup or something and that’s not an option for me. So this lentil soup is what I craved after my first pregnancy and second and my mother in law was sweet enough to learn how to make it so she can make it for us when she took over after my parents left.
Sarah Trott: [00:05:57] Would you be willing to share that recipe with us on our site.
Jeni Diaz: [00:06:00] Yes happy too happy to.
Sarah Trott: [00:06:02] OK great we have a new section of lots and lots of good recipes so I’d love to add that. So how is it that you came about creating a business while on maternity leave?
Jeni Diaz: [00:06:13] Good question. So my wonderful friend Siobhan Quinn who I’ve known since we were freshmen at the University of Washington came to visit me while I was on maternity leave and she had just taken a sabbatical from Foursquare and it was her goal to start a company. So she was testing a few ideas and while she came to visit me I was telling her how crazy it was and how lucky I felt that she still came to visit despite not having kids herself at the time and how hard it was to maintain my friendships with some of my older friends. And then in general how hard it is to get out of the house with a newborn especially when I didn’t know what I was doing at the time. And she you know coming from a social background she was like I think we can solve this. I think this is what we should be working on and do you want to work on this with me. Absolutely. And so we started Parenthoods. We built a prototype and we tested it out with a few of our friends asked them what they thought. They all loved it applied to YC, got in, and it just kind of took off from there. So we launched in San Francisco and it was great because at first my job was just to go to all these playdates with my daughter and then it got real and then we had to put her in her Montessori and it became a full time job. But it essentially started with me being very lonely, needing some friends and wanting to solve that need for other parents that I knew had that.
Sarah Trott: [00:07:51] What was it like for you. Were you feeling isolated?
Jeni Diaz: [00:07:55] Absolutely. I was. You know I was so scared to leave the house because I was like well what if she cries and I’m not an expert at breastfeeding in public yet; I still needed my breast friend to hold her up. I was worried , I just didn’t know what to do in the situation. If she cries, what if she needs to be fed. And I was really scared to leave the house then when I finally got comfortable leaving the home and wanting to meet up with people I tried reaching out to people in Meetup. But it was such a strain to get in the car and pack up everything for 30 minutes of coffee and then go back home. And so what I really needed was someone close by super close by and I needed someone just to chat with and meetup dotcom didn’t really solve that for me. It was great for me being out but unless you made good friends and shared your information with each other there was no real good community section for that. So I lived close to Target and what I started to do was just walk the aisles of Target and just like look at moms you know grab my coffee. We never even bought anything. we would just go up and to get some exercise and get out of the house and hopefully pick up a mom friend while I was out. Never did. But I did see the other mom friends. It’s kind of scary introducing yourself that way. And so when we decided to build Parenthoods we knew it had to be a community section; community had to be first. And so there had to be this element of dipping your toe in the water to meet other people and to share your experiences and then build that trust and then from there you can you know create meet ups and go to different events and meet other people in real life and from there, I’m very proud to say that a lot of our retention rates through the roof and that’s because people have found this community that they love and trust and there is an element of testing the waters before you know fully committing to it and really seeing what kind of support you can get from other parents in the community and in your neighborhood.
Sarah Trott: [00:10:11] It feels so common as an experience for a new parent, especially a first time parent to be sort of disconnected, not only because it’s so exhausting to be at home with a newborn. And there’s a lot of emotional stuff at play as well with feeling protective and not wanting to expose the baby. I experienced that certainly. But then to realize hey maybe I don’t have parent friends or maybe they you know maybe all the parents, they’re the first parent in their friend circle. Knowing how to make those friends that are local and close because that can make the difference between going on a walk by yourself and going on a walk with someone else.
Jeni Diaz: [00:10:54] Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean we didn’t, we were the first sort of our friend group to have a child. And in San Francisco. We were, I mean I remember thinking how we just felt dumped. We felt like all of our friends dumped us. And of course they didn’t, they loved us, but there were just different priorities now. No one wants to have dinner at 5:00 p.m. with a child. And so you’re definitely feeling isolated. It’s very tough. And finding friends that kind of are on your same wavelength. I mean I think the best part about it was just finding people that you can text in the middle of the night or chat with in the middle of the night while you’re nursing and you’re all alone at 3am exhausted but feeling like you’re not alone, through this community was something that was very important for us to create.
Sarah Trott: [00:11:55] Yeah absolutely. And so then how would someone use Parenthoods to find that support network; how does that work?
Jeni Diaz: [00:12:03] Well first I think the funnest place on Parenthoods is in the feed. Parents are super fun and funny and love sharing the silly things that happened during the day. There’s lots of honest talk but finding the humor in it… so simply introducing yourself in the feed is number one; getting to know the different parents that are regulars on Parenthoods is fun and most of those parents create regular meetups. That’s the best part, is when you start to feel comfortable you can start creating your own meet ups or join one that someone else has created. So we have things from regular walks in the park that you can join; weekly picnics in the park; babies and burritos. That’s a regular one; hops and pops where we actually encourage dads to be on Parenthoods; not just the mommies site because as you know dads are way more involved in raising children these days. I know my husband is. And so we have lots of stay at home dads too. But there’s an event specifically for dads that where they bring their kids; give moms a break. So I think you know introducing yourself on the feed, getting to know people, joining those meet ups and creating one yourself. Probably the best way.
Sarah Trott: [00:13:26] Yeah and what do you think about people who are living maybe outside the Bay Area or Los Angeles. Are you aware of any good resources that you might recommend?
Jeni Diaz: [00:13:35] Yes so. So there is a lot of other mommy groups. If you were to use Parenthoods I would recommend inviting your friends to Parenthood’s just because it’s super easy to create meet ups through there. But other than that so other resources you mean outside of Parenthoods. Yeah. Yes so. Ok here are my favorite resources. Mine are to meet other people. Meet up dot com is wonderful. I love meet up dotcom to go to different mommy events; Big Tent hosts a few mommy groups in do other cities and urbansitter is wonderful even though that’s where you go to find a sitter. They have lots of great events or showcase events at other venues and whatnot so if you sign up and if they’re holding events somewhere then you’ll get an email about where to go and you can find a great center that way.
Sarah Trott: [00:14:35] Yes. Very important : date-night.
Jeni Diaz: [00:14:39] But that should also be a priority in the fourth trimester even though it’s so hard to get away; even if it’s just for an hour or two.
Sarah Trott: [00:14:46] Yeah. Why is that so important?
Jeni Diaz: [00:14:48] Well I know with two kids it’s impossible to chat with my husband, like I can’t even, whenever I start to hold a conversation with him or asked him how his day was, my oldest daughter like wants to get in on the conversation and she needs just as much attention as you know my husband does because she’s been at school all day so she wants to be in the conversation as well. Unfortunately they both go to bed at the same time so I feel like the window to communicate with my husband or just catch up on each others’ days is very very small and so having that alone time for just you and him and no other distractions is so key and if there was some wine involved that’s even better.
Sarah Trott: [00:15:41] I know for new parents one of the challenges is finding people they trust to help with after their children and I know you mentioned urban center which is a fantastic resource but also if someone’s looking for a daycare or long term nanny type situation or a nanny share are there ways that they can use Parenthoods to connect with those resources?
Jeni Diaz: [00:16:04] Yes we have classifieds section and what’s great about this is the word of mouth factor. I think that’s so important. We found our sitters through recommendations. So half of our sitters were found through urban sitter and I found them via recommendations where they show other people you know who’s worked with them and then the other half found because a neighbor you know said I have used this person and they are great and that’s so important because you have that validation from your friends too, which is so much easier to trust than you know anything else like a background check or whatever. Because you know that they watch their child. They trust them. They have had a good experience, so I feel like word of mouth recommendations are huge with everything in parenting actually but especially for who you trust your child with. So we have a classified section where people can post you know their services. We have a childcare section where people can post their child care services and look for nanny shares or their own nanny. So it’s been a great resource to use the community to help find what you need in that area.
Sarah Trott: [00:17:19] Absolutely. It’s so important to have the references and to be able to follow up with those people, as you say, and hear their first hand experiences with their children because there aren’t professional bodies that provide ratings for individual people.
Jeni Diaz: [00:17:39] If only there were; I’d pay for that.
Sarah Trott: [00:17:41] Me too, free idea. So let’s talk about more about building a support network. It seems like that was part of the impetus for creating Parenthoods and it does seem so so important. Did you consider using a postpartum doula yourself ?
Jeni Diaz: [00:18:03] yes so I didn’t even know they existed with my first birth. And a friend of mine called me up and said that her friend just finished postpartum doula school and needed to get some hours in and asked if I would work with her. And I was very happy to. So she started about a month after having my first and it was amazing. I mean it just took a load off. I couldn’t believe I didn’t know about this resource one because I felt like I studied everything about the birth. But then I realized no one gives you information about afterwards. And so she came to help and it was such a huge huge blessing. I mean you know when you think about it all, you’re just home all day. Right. And so everyone thinks that it should be completely easy to make due, but her help was instrumental in just letting me take a shower that day because I didn’t know how to put my daughter down. You know she wasn’t a certified lactation consultant but she was great at giving tips on how to make it easier how the breastfeed in public so I’m not giving everyone a show. I mean it’s just little things and then helping out with dinner it was just so huge. And so I knew that with baby number two that I was definitely going to have one. And even though I feel like they are more helpful for new moms I just needed help, period. And I knew I needed that for my own sanity. So I just, I’m glad I stumbled upon her help. The first time around and I took advantage of it the second time around.
Sarah Trott: [00:19:52] Oh great. So you are working with her again for the second baby.
Jeni Diaz: [00:19:55] Well sort of. We moved. So now I have a new one. But we are using a postpartum doula the second time around for sure. And I’ve referred our first one to everyone I know. She is so amazing and wonderful and gentle and was able to get my daughter to take a bottle and then she stopped again after she left, but she had the magic touch.
Sarah Trott: [00:20:21] That’s interesting to me that you say that you sort of stumbled upon this resource; that it was a contact who volunteered to sort of work with you. Other than that had you heard of what, did you even know what postpartum Doula was?
Jeni Diaz: [00:20:33] No I had no clue. In fact I was confused when she first started because I thought she was also a birth doula. I didn’t even know they were think because I was like oh well why don’t you see these people they’re are about to have a baby and she’s like oh no no no I’m not a birth doula, i’m a postpartum doula. And so I learned you know what they were and what they focused on through her. So yeah I had no clue even existed.
Sarah Trott: [00:21:02] I wonder if there are many postpartum doulas on Parenthoods?
Jeni Diaz: [00:21:08] I know we have some, I know we do and I know that few of them don’t say that they’re a postpartum doula because they’re also a mom and want to take advantage of the community as themselves. And so don’t want to jeopardize you know their business in any way, but they offer wonderful wonderful feedback and advice to other parents that are in the situation of having a million questions and needing help and they also refer their friends to these people for business.
Sarah Trott: [00:21:46] Yeah it just amazes me because I myself I’ve mentioned in previous episodes, had no idea what postpartum Doula care was. I didn’t know what a postpartum Doula was the only association I even had with the word postpartum was this notion of postpartum depression. And sometimes when I say I’m talking with people about postpartum care they think that I mean postpartum depression and while postpartum depression is a very real topic and it’s important, you know some of the care that can be done in that fourth trimester can help identify those issues early and give people the support they need or perhaps help avoid some of the pitfalls that can be associated with emotional change because our bodies go through so much change. It’s a very real thing.
Jeni Diaz: [00:22:35] Oh my goodness. Yes.
Sarah Trott: [00:22:39] So I’m encouraged to hear that there are people who are chipping in to the conversations from that perspective and helping shed light on that area.
Jeni Diaz: [00:22:48] Absolutely. And you know one thing that I didn’t know existed I didn’t know sibling Doulas existed. Have you heard?
Sarah Trott: [00:22:57] So no I haven’t. And I would love to hear.
Jeni Diaz: [00:23:01] So we did. A Home Birth with our first and second. And so when you have your second, when you get ready to have your second birth you have a child that’s most likely going to be home while you’re giving birth. And so you need to prepare them for what they might see. And if you want them to be there, which a lot of people do, preparing them to be able to handle that situation. So enter sibling doulas. And we’ve found out about this through other friends who had a home birth and were considering one for their second birth. And so they essentially take care of your first child or your other children and walk them through what’s going on and letting them know that mommy is OK and letting them be as involved as they want to be or should be without slowing down mom’s labor or taking them to play whatever it is. And so we hired a sibling doula for our first daughter and she was amazing. She was awesome and she was able to be both my birth doula and the sibling doula it because I knew that I wanted my mom and husband to be my birth team since they were the first time around. But I knew there was a very large chance that my daughter might want her grandma to take care of her during the birth. And so I needed them to be able to have interchangeable roles and so I hired the sibling doula who’s also a trained birth doula and she helped out while she was at school and then we pulled Evie out of school right before the birth, to be a part of that. And she walked Evie through all of that and helped her be involved in it and it was super magical and wonderful and I’m so glad we had that experience and I’m so glad sibling Doulas exist and I wish I knew about them before but glad I found out about them before our birth.
Sarah Trott: [00:25:04] That’s blowing my mind. I did not know that existed.
Jeni Diaz: [00:25:10] I guess it would only, I guess it’s uncommon because you know not very many people have home births. Right. And kids aren’t allowed in the hospital so they’re not needed for most birth.
Sarah Trott: [00:25:23] And do sibling doulas continue to provide any services during the few months after the newborn has arrived.
Jeni Diaz: [00:25:32] So in our case she continued on like a birth doula would. So she came and took care of me afterwards and there was one time where Evie was home that day and they got to hang out. And Evie was so excited when she came she was like, “Did you bring the birth tub?” She thought the birthtub came with the doula and with the birth tub in her mind, comes a baby. So she thought we were going to get another baby. No birth tub. Yeah. So she provided the extra care that a birth doula would. So she helped me you know talk about some tough transitions that I wasn’t expecting with my second birth and just kind of mourning this different relationship with my first daughter where you know she was fine but I was having a hard time feeling like I wasn’t giving her everything like that I used to be able to. It was, our relationship was different and that was very hard for me to deal with. So lots of tears. But you’re doubly goodbye to this one relationship that you had with your oldest and ushering in a new one in that transition. It’s very, it was very hard for me. I’m even tearing up right now.
Sarah Trott: [00:26:59] It’s such a huge change and there’s a lot there’s a lot for your first baby to go through too, your first child who’s experiencing all of these new wonderful things is going through a lot from going from an only child to being the oldest child.
Jeni Diaz: [00:27:17] She has been doing wonderful and we’re a month in and she’s still doing great. But it really hit me hard. It was harder on me. But yeah I think we’re going to be learning a lot more over the next few months of how this is going to go. But there’s definitely this mourning of this relationship that you used to have. And she helped talk me through that and it was just it was just nice talking to someone about it and having someone listen and say they understood and saying it’s all normal and we’re going to be building our new normal. So that was a wonderful little parting gift she left.
Sarah Trott: [00:27:58] Absolutely that’s such an important aspect of care having an emotional support person available to talk through these things and then help you cope with this.
Jeni Diaz: [00:28:10] Yes. And you don’t realize you know you can be so prepared and don’t realize what it is that’s going to really affect you. You know and it could be little things. But that was the one that you know I had trouble dealing with.
Sarah Trott: [00:28:26] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Jeni Diaz: [00:28:29] Absolutely. Well and I hope anyone who wants to have more than one will be ready for it. This new transition. Because I feel like I wasn’t. I wish I was a little more prepared for it, but still happy that I had support when I did you know cross that bridge.
Sarah Trott: [00:28:46] What are some of the things that you think could help prepare someone for that change?
Jeni Diaz: [00:28:51] Well so in our case we could have prepared a little bit more by realizing everything that would have changed once the baby was here and starting that transition early on. So a few of the things that I gave up were dropping her off at school and our morning routine. And preparing prior to the birth probably would have been helpful. So it wasn’t such a big shock. And again it wasn’t a shock to her but it was me. We also co-slept and I thought we were gonna all be able to stay in the same room when the new baby came. Wishful thinking. But that baby kept everyone awake. And so my husband and daughter moved out and she finally got her own room and she was super excited about it. But that is what really killed me, because I realized how much bonding we did at that time. And so you know, those cuddles, I miss those cuddles in the morning and at night. But I think that if we were to have transitioned prior to the birth that would have been easier on me. Again She’s been fine. That would have been easier on me. So yeah I think making, preparing for those transitions, those bigger transitions prior would have been helpful because it wouldn’t have seemed like such a shock after the birth. When all those hormones are flying everywhere.
Sarah Trott: [00:30:22] Yeah. Some of the practical things things related to a schedule and where everybody sleeps. Any resources; anything that you’ve read or anything else that you think would be useful?
Jeni Diaz: [00:30:38] I feel like for me I’m a talker and I need to talk it out and I need to just have someone listen. So in this case my postpartum doula has been great; my midwives have been great –my midwives have been wonderful. They’re the ones that I feel really understand it and know it and you’re so intimate with them already that it’s been wonderful. They also gave me a list of resources to call if I ever need anything. But I think overall it’s talking it out and this can be with someone in person or online. So I’ve also made really good friends on Parenthoods that you know if I don’t want to be as open on the feed I just direct message a friend and ask her how she went through X Y and Z and get an amazing response and that’s almost easier than going out to a meet up because I just can’t get out of the house. I mean everything seems like so hard when you have an infant, you it know takes like 30 minutes just to pack up everything. So just finding those connections online are so huge.
Sarah Trott: [00:31:51] Well as a final question I thought I would tap into your amazing experience base that you have now with activities that are designed for families with babies and little kids. Since now that you’ve created most of these events and attended tons and tons of events. What are some of your favorite activities with babies and kids?
Jeni Diaz: [00:32:13] Yes. So our favorite activities so far we’ve been to a ton. But our favorite activities you know other than the ones that Parenthoods throws are indoor play spaces– those are amazing and there are some in every city and some that even have like wine and beer for the parents. That’s awesome. Have a little happy hour sessions, play sessions. And that makes it easier to meet other parents. So those are some of my favorites. There’s these indoor place places. They have a snack area and your kid goes wild and you can meet other parents. And normally there’s a section for pre-walkers. So babies crawling around. Those are so huge. My other favorite thing to do is to go to restaurants that have kids play areas. There’s very few of those in San Francisco but in other cities there’s a ton more. And in San Francisco while there’s few there’s a number of restaurants and fun places that people can recommend that are kid friendly that you know aren’t advertised as kid friendly. I love that because it makes you feel like you’re still able to get out. You’re kind of an adult. But it’s ok that you have a kid you know in this play area but you’re able to get out and be an adult for an hour or so. And then my other favorite thing, my final favorite thing is to go to fun kids concerts and I never thought I’d say that being someone that was really into the music scene prior to kids I didn’t think like children’s bands would be a fun thing. But my daughter loves them and would just go up and dance for forever and they’re usually at your local restaurants and museums. And they’re just a fun way to again meet other parents as well because other parents are more open to saying hi at those places. So essentially my favorite spots are areas where the kids could have fun. You feel like an adult and you’re getting out of the house and you’re meeting other parents at the same time. So those are my three favorites.
Sarah Trott: [00:34:32] I love it. Thank you so much. You’ve shared a ton of insights with us and you’ve opened up about your experiences and I can’t thank you enough.
Jeni Diaz: [00:34:40] Thank you for having me on.
Sarah Trott: [00:34:46] You can find out more about Esther Gallagher on http://www.esthergallagher.com/. You can also subscribe to this podcast in order to hear more from us. Thank you for listening everyone and I hope you’ll join us next time on the Fourth Trimester. The theme music on this podcast was created by Sean Trott. Hear more at https://soundcloud.com/seantrott. Special thanks to my true loves: my husband Ben, daughter Penelope, and baby girl Evelyn. Don’t forget to share the Fourth Trimester Podcast with any new and expecting parents. I’m Sarah Trott. Goodbye for now.